Curse

diabiosx · Jan 21, 2010, 08:58 PM // 20:58

I feel that that the capturing radius of each point in HoH should be much larger, so that way certain skills such as aoe spells,well of the profane, channeling wont overpower this game style. Having 24players+3ghosts to all ball with a radius slightly bigger radius than "in the area" is just a bad idea. I feel that if we make the capturing radius into "spirit range" for the middle altar we can actually use kiting to prevent damage, and we can remove the need for channeling monks.

Lord Dagon · Jan 21, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28

but you also have to realise they are spaced that way so that its easier to defend. I mean would you rather be defending a 20x30 space or a 6x10?(dont ask where i got those numbers i just made them up ;p). While ive never done HoH, not entirely sure what it is.., i gotta say defending a smaller area(or being attacked in one) is alot easier then attacking/defending a larger area ;p

Eragon Zarroc · Jan 21, 2010, 09:48 PM // 21:48

if u make it spirit range, everyone would easily be in range, and this would make it a stalemate so much more often. having it in the range it is now makes it hard to defend and easy to attack so that possession can easily shift letting the match be much more competitive and exciting. it's no fun fighting an entire match, someone doesn't take hold until halfway through, and then they hold on to it for the rest of the match with relative ease

ritukill · Jan 21, 2010, 10:29 PM // 22:29

That idea would simply ruin the whole point of having capture points.
You can either run an over offensive build (sways, backbreaker sins, etc)and clean the altar, or run an over defensive build (spikes), or run something in between (the balanced builds with all the standard bars with a fire ele that can win the match.)

Back to the point of increasing the radius, when you do that how would you call that equal for the red and yellow team? all blue has to do is spread out in a huge area and the monks heal up the team.
So in order to cap the center as the yellow or red team would be that those teams first have to kill blue (which will take a lot longer than with the current radius) and once they've done that you got the same situation as we have now, the 2 teams cancel eachother out, blue can just walk in when they ressed even if they're all hexed with skills like grasping earth and they take their positions again.

To make a long story short
/notsigned

diabiosx · Jan 21, 2010, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Tobi read this http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Capture_Points. As for a bigger radius being easy to defend, I would say no. Here is why, 2teams vs 1 means one has to die . It also means you can move around instead of standing still thus adding more skill into the game. It wouldnt be a stalemate because it implies that you can not kill, which is not true in a 2teams vs1 mechanic. I believe that increasing the radius would not change the current mechanic of the game but the reducing effectiveness of aoe skills therefore balancing HA in a sense.

X Ghoul · Jan 21, 2010, 10:47 PM // 22:47

I don't think the increased radius would help in a 1v1 match since all the other team has to do is just kite for their life and split anyone back your trying to send. If its only for 1v1v1 then I wouldn't go as far and say spirit range, but a slight increase would not be a bad thing since most of the time 1 team just wipes to 2 overly offensive builds.

Lord Dagon · Jan 21, 2010, 10:58 PM // 22:58

ah ok /facepalm for not realizing it was hall of heros.. my bad.. but u gotta give me credit im a pve junkie.. but i did know what caputre points were(i have played other games then GW o.0)

diabiosx · Jan 21, 2010, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ritukill

That idea would simply ruin the whole point of having capture points.
You can either run an over offensive build (sways, backbreaker sins, etc)and clean the altar, or run an over defensive build (spikes), or run something in between (the balanced builds with all the standard bars with a fire ele that can win the match.)

Back to the point of increasing the radius, when you do that how would you call that equal for the red and yellow team? all blue has to do is spread out in a huge area and the monks heal up the team.
So in order to cap the center as the yellow or red team would be that those teams first have to kill blue (which will take a lot longer than with the current radius) and once they've done that you got the same situation as we have now, the 2 teams cancel eachother out, blue can just walk in when they ressed even if they're all hexed with skills like grasping earth and they take their positions again.

To make a long story short
/notsigned

nonebold: Lemme tell you a little secret, in King of the hill where you 2v1the holding team, you can easily kill the holding team and since every1 is important, it means killing a ele is actually a choice therefore there are more targets to prot for the backline which means BLUE is not at a advantage as you put it.

bold: Lemme just say this 2 teams that cancels each other out are a buncha noobs and dont understand the concept of capture points. A smart team knows to pull out of cap range until altar is neutralized and push back in. and believe me it will be the same mechanic as the current capture system.

AGAIN LEMME STRESS THIS: the only thing that i feel would change in the size increase is the reduced effectiveness of aoe spells and makes channeling monks an option not a must.

Reverend Dr · Jan 22, 2010, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Many problems created when they 'just added' extra win conditions to the original HA map. They've already acknowledged it and talked about appropriate change of HA itself.

Though reminding them that 'cap point' styled maps where the map objective forces players into tight places overpowers all types of AoE is not a bad idea either.

EDIT: though the idea of 24 players and 3 ghosts in the same area is silly, there is far more to the 3-way tactics than just cap center altar. Most people just choose to ignore that than develop any new tactic.

House Silvermoon · Jan 22, 2010, 06:07 AM // 06:07

i think cap points atm doesnt need any changing. i'd rather anet focus their attentions on other issues that this game has.

kedde · Jan 22, 2010, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Tombs honor just dictates an honorable 8v8v8 match at the altar instead of people playing a 100% to their own best chance.
If people actually go completely for their own chance and start splitting up constantly with no regards to retarded "UGANKWEGANK" then the matches inherently become much more entertaining.

diabiosx · Jan 22, 2010, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Kedde you are going into another topic, which is splits in capture points HoH. There is a reason why every1 plays for middle.
1. it is the easiest to defend compared to the other bases you can cap. If you cap an enemy's home base, they can easily recap it back from the minutely resurrections, plus some teams will get pissed off and gank you in the end if they know there is no chance for them to win. Even if you wipe in the middle, there are chances where the other teams are so stupid that they are canceling each other out and the middle base is still yours when you recover from the wipe.
2. it is the closest base you can get to, reducing movement time and more cap time.
3. lets say are red and if you 2man+ split into blues team, what you are essentially doing is giving points to yellow. A 2man+ split is very easy to spot therefore blue will take people back from the middle to their base to defend. Your team,red, wont have enough people to cap middle since all of yellow is there. Blue will still have their base. OR another scenario is you 2man+ split both bases, what you essentially did was 4(you)v6v6. You will have 4ppl left in the middline and the other 2teams will send 2people back to their base to defend giving them both 6people in the middle. Of course if you face retarded teams that cant see 2people running into their base then these splits will work, but against good teams it wont. Also you run the risk of getting ganked by capping another team's base as most people see it as a gank, instead of their failure to spot ninja-ings.
4. It is the easiest tactic.

ATM there are 4types of splits(could be missing one).
1. fake splits, you run halfway to a team's base and then run back to force them off the altar inorder to prevent them from getting middle.
2. Ninja-ing. A person with a speed boost attempts to sneak into another team's base without getting spotted when all teams are in the middle fighting.
3. large team split, usually very spottable, usually done in the last minute to the teams to confuse them, usually very effective if the other teams are stupid and dont know how to defend their own base.
4. gank, you send over 50% of your teammates to one base the entire game. As a result both of you guys cant win.

Killed u man · Jan 22, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14

In other words, as I've said before in the million threads about HoH that have passed the avenue (Some created by me):

HoH isn't about skill, it's about luck.

Relic run is completely retarded, anyone who tries to proof differently is an idiot. The worst part is there actually IS people who believe capping last requires skill, rather than a sheer amount of luck.

Cap points is all about who can hold center. And if you can't hold it, whichever team splits first, loses. The team that doesn't get split on, and can remain the most passive throughout the match wins.

KoTH is the only condition in HoH worth playing, every other one you're just going to get ganked or have to rely on luck to win.

Last second cap KoTH is the way to go. It IS and always will be the only true form of holding halls, which promotes tactics and de-promote ganking.

TheHaxor · Jan 22, 2010, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Relic Run is pretty much luck. However, you can build a team accordingly in order to give yourself an advantage (ie. 2 dedicated snares). The teams built in such a way win more often than those who are not.

Capture Points and KotH take skill. If you think otherwise, then you are playing them wrong. It's not just about holding center. It's about holding center at the right time and making pushes at the right time. The clock is everything for capture points... and KotH for that matter. Proper clock usage really is probably the most overlooked and yet most important keys to victory in HoH. These things will not change regardless of whether or not the capture radius is changed.

However, the gank always looms so there is always a hint of luck involved in any game type.

diabiosx · Jan 24, 2010, 12:59 AM // 00:59

bringing topic back to radius size of capture points. Can some1 explain with a good reason to me why a bigger radius for capture point is bad.

TheHaxor · Jan 24, 2010, 01:43 AM // 01:43

It would be a huge advantage for the team holding the point as it would allow them to spread out much easier. It doesn't necessarily promote more tactical play. The current approach isn't brainless anyway. Yes, you dump a shitload of AoE on the point. However, you have to do this at the right time on the right targets and push at the right time in order to actually gain control of a point for any significant amount of time.

Besides, any holding team that has a brain is going to pull off the altar when 2 teams engage them and then drop the bomb on the team that starts winning the engagement between the two teams. That's probably the single most effective strategy for the map.

superraptors · Jan 27, 2010, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

In other words, as I've said before in the million threads about HoH that have passed the avenue (Some created by me):

HoH isn't about skill, it's about luck.

Relic run is completely retarded, anyone who tries to proof differently is an idiot. The worst part is there actually IS people who believe capping last requires skill, rather than a sheer amount of luck.

Cap points is all about who can hold center. And if you can't hold it, whichever team splits first, loses. The team that doesn't get split on, and can remain the most passive throughout the match wins.

KoTH is the only condition in HoH worth playing, every other one you're just going to get ganked or have to rely on luck to win.

Last second cap KoTH is the way to go. It IS and always will be the only true form of holding halls, which promotes tactics and de-promote ganking.

cap points is not all about holding centre, it is certainly to play for during first half of the match, then the last minute crucial splits around 2 mins will determine the winner if u succeed, people who split early will fail most likely

oldschool holding does not promote tactics, last time i heard it was still in game people ran dual para thump and held almost-indefinitely, it promotes retarded defensive builds

relic run i gotta agree, its pretty much luck if the scores are tied or if u get ganked

Killed u man · Jan 27, 2010, 05:12 PM // 17:12

And by crucially splitting, you obviously mean hoping the team you're splitting against is RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing shit, and allows you to cap their base, despite all the choke points to body block your team/ghost AND also that the 3th, who will get free play for the last minute won't split for yours.

Cap points, as said a million times before, relies on your opponent being bad, rather than you being good. "Splitting and capping a base" only works if your opponents are bad. And even IF you do manage to cap it, the 3th team will always have atleast an extra guy on you at the center.

Cap Points comes close to the worst possible design you can put in a 3-way map, with Relic Run beating it by a fingertop.

Again, last second altar cap (even with song, which is still prone to interrupts) is the only thing that comes close to "skill = win". Build matters alot, but ANY build can still win on it. (Interrupt heavy can deny capping. Balanced can go either way, defence can hold, etc)

With these shitconditions ANY TEAM can win. I've seen PvE'ers win cap points map. I've seen hench teams (6 henchies, 2 real players) win Relic Run, solely because the percentage of luck in HoH is so high.

The reasons why people manage to hold rite now is:

1) Luck
2) Inactivity (1v1 srs bsns)
3) PvE teams that have no clue what they're doing

diabiosx · Jan 27, 2010, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And by crucially splitting, you obviously mean hoping the team you're splitting against is RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing shit, and allows you to cap their base, despite all the choke points to body block your team/ghost AND also that the 3th, who will get free play for the last minute won't split for yours.

Cap points, as said a million times before, relies on your opponent being bad, rather than you being good. "Splitting and capping a base" only works if your opponents are bad. And even IF you do manage to cap it, the 3th team will always have atleast an extra guy on you at the center.

Cap Points comes close to the worst possible design you can put in a 3-way map, with Relic Run beating it by a fingertop.

Again, last second altar cap (even with song, which is still prone to interrupts) is the only thing that comes close to "skill = win". Build matters alot, but ANY build can still win on it. (Interrupt heavy can deny capping. Balanced can go either way, defence can hold, etc)

With these shitconditions ANY TEAM can win. I've seen PvE'ers win cap points map. I've seen hench teams (6 henchies, 2 real players) win Relic Run, solely because the percentage of luck in HoH is so high.

The reasons why people manage to hold rite now is:

1) Luck
2) Inactivity (1v1 srs bsns)
3) PvE teams that have no clue what they're doing

everything i agree with except bolds. Having only last minute KOTH=play superdefensive builds, and wait for UW to HoH skips which leads to boring lame builds.

Killed u man · Jan 27, 2010, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

everything i agree with except bolds. Having only last minute KOTH=play superdefensive builds, and wait for UW to HoH skips which leads to boring lame builds.

That was a consequence of bad skill balance, not the map itself. Bspike has always been a problem. NR and Tranq were also often seen in GvG, due to their power, and blocking the ghostly off center builds was obvious AI abuse.

Dual Para holding was OP paragons, which also got abused in GvG and same for Jaggedway.

SoMW was used in GvG aswell, on occasion. (With enchant heavy builds) But that probably is one of the only builds that "solely" ruled HA.

All those holding builds were results of broken mechanics, which got abused in other formats aswell, it wasn't inhirent to HA or KoTH...